Ivan Zhao

Notion’s lost years, its near collapse during Covid, staying small to move fast, the joy and suffering of building horizontal, more | Ivan Zhao (CEO and co-founder)

Source 1312025-03-0612,524 words

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Opening

Lenny Rachitsky (00:00:00): The way you described the early years of Notion, you described the first three to four years as the lost years. Ivan Zhao (00:00:05): We try many different versions. The first version, okay, everybody can make and create their software, so let's just build a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that. We tried that a couple of years and learned that actually most people just don't care....

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Low-ego framing

Ivan Zhao (00:00:05): We try many different versions. The first version, okay, everybody can make and create their software, so let's just...

Uses we/us, uncertainty, or learner framing instead of performing authority.

Accept praise cleanly

Ivan Zhao (00:04:47): Thank you for having me. Lenny Rachitsky (00:04:48): I know you don't do a lot of podcasts, and so I'm very honored that...

Accepts praise without shrinking from it or turning it into a performance.

Low-ego framing

(00:07:45): That's amazing. And there's another seminal moment in your path. I don't know if it was this point or later, but the Douglas Engelbart paper ended up being a very meaningful moment for you....

Uses we/us, uncertainty, or learner framing instead of performing authority.

Accept praise cleanly

Lenny Rachitsky (01:11:45): Amazing. Ivan, thank you so much for being here. Ivan Zhao (01:11:47): Thank you for having me. Lenny Rachitsky (01:11:49): Bye,...

Accepts praise without shrinking from it or turning it into a performance.

Ending

Ivan Zhao (01:11:00): Probably find on me on Twitter, Ivan Z-H-A-O. It's helpful give us feedback about Notion, about our product. That's the best help. Lenny Rachitsky (01:11:12): What's the best way to do that? Is it like DM, Ivan, or is it- Ivan Zhao (01:11:14): Yeah, just DM me. Lenny Rachitsky (01:11:15): Okay. Ivan Zhao (01:11:15): DM me. Yeah, that's probably the best way. Lenny Rachitsky (01:11:19): Okay. Oh boy, here you go. And then you guys are hiring. Anything specific you're looking for?...

The ending makes gratitude concrete, which turns warmth into checkable behavior.